Canny lass

"EETUPTU gobbling up smaller Groups" that's very good Vic - (eat up 2)

That's interesting, what you say about your Donkey-stone substitute, Maggie. Was it for cleaning steps from moss? I thought it was purely for decorative purposes. Keith, nice to see a member of the male species who admits to being romantic!

I Think it was called COAL tar soap Maggie. I loved that smell! It had some very medicinal properties. We used to use coal tar soap , and paste, in the Health service for various skin complaints way back in the 60s. Speaking of smells - does anybody remember 'donkey-stone'? A square block (roughly 5" by 5") of some sort of yellowish material, a bit like coarse chalk in consistency. It was used to 'decorate' the front- and back door-step after scrubbing them Clean. You rubbed the stone against the wet Surface and it sort of rubbed off. I use the Word decorate loosely. It was more a question of drawing a border around the upper Surface of the step. Donkey-stone also had a wonderful smell, which I can't describe. There are some emulsion Paints that remind me of it.

Discussion is never meaningless, Vic, and it's Always good to try and understand both sides.

Vic, with the exception of the odd corker of a nappie I like Everything about Children! Two Points: For me, negotiation is negotiation, whether it takes Place in large industries or small industries, between employer and employee, government and industry, or me and the next door neighbour. There are some basic rules that apply in all types of negotiation.Those above are some of them. of course I would support any colleague of mine who was unfairly dismissed and the union called a strike - but not by going on strike. There are plenty of other ways of offering support. I wouldn't see any reason to look for Another job if I was happy where I was and I would probably change to Another union.

That's true Vic. The naivety of Children may not Always be unwise but most small Children have yet to learn that every action has a consequence, not only for themselves but even for others. I worked 20 years in the nursing profession Before leaving England and I was Always, even as a Nursing Officer, paid less than a miner so I'm very much aware of how it is to be a low-paid worker. I'm also very much aware of how it is to go every year cap in hand, like Oliver Twist and say "Please sir can I have some more?". I very rarely got any more, with the exception of some General Election years when my vote was solicited by way of a few extra coppers in my wage packet, only to have them taken back the following year by way of an increased registration fee. Even so I never dreamed of going on strike. Maybe if I had been starving or didn't have a roof over my head I may have thought and even acted differently but, like the miners, I was neither of those things so negotiations could go on for a very long time without me ever resorting to strike. You ask me how I would negotiate with a party who was being unreasonable. Well, firstly I would refrain from saying they were being unreasonable. It's an expression of subjectivity that has no Place in serious negotiation and it would probably be more fruitful to ask myself why I am being subjective. The same can be said of the expression 'not listening'. Maybe they are listening but not understanding and that may be because I am not communicating very well. There can be faults on both sides and Words and actions can be misinterpreted by both parties. Good negotiation is all about good Communication, so there's my first rule: - analise your own Communication skills before criticisng the other party. - be aware that nothing is as simple for the other party as you yourself Think it to be. You can never be aware of ALL the details involved in his decisions, just as he can not beware of all the details in yours. He may well have Another agenda as problems tend to infringe on many areas at the same time. Life's complex. - If negotiations are not going the way you want, be prepared to change tactics, but only within the boundaries of discussion. Never forget that negotiating is all about discussion, nothing else. - never threaten. - remember that negotiations can take a very long time. Don't let impatience spoil the outcome. - if your not getting anywhere question your own ability as a negotiater, . Be prepared to step down and let somebody else have a crack at it. - never let your own personal feelings get in the way of discussion. - seek support by all means but never demand it and if all else fails change your job. Nobody is forcing you to stay in a profession with an employer whom you do not like and is making you so unhappy you are prepared to strike.

Gives a whole new meaning to the expression 'Hold on, I'm just nipping out for a fag' which must have echoed around the halls of Harrow and Eaton at toast-time.

Feel free to disagree Vic. Freedom of speech is every man's right and lies at the very heart of true democracy. I hear what you're saying and of course we should have the right to negotiate safety, rights, benefits, better working conditions and even wages. Negotiating is a very adult way of solving conflicts. I'm assuming of course that by " to negotiate" you mean trying to reach an agreement or compromise by discussion with others, as reads the standard Dictionary definition. However, when resorting to strike in order to reach an agreement you are using behaviour not discussion, rather like a small Child does, due to not having developed the verbal capacity needed for negotiation. In this way I see striking as childish. I can probably go along with 'having the right' to strike but equally I beleive that people should have the right NOT to strike and not to be persecuted for using that right. Unfortunately this doesn't seem to be the case when a union calls a strike. It's a case of one out, all out and woe betide any member who Thinks otherwise. We have all seen horrific reports on TV about what happens to union members who go to work during a strike and even to others, not directly involved in the strike. Here I'm thinking of drivers delivering goods etc who need to cross the picket line. These people are also working to support a family. Isn't that also a basic right? In the case of the miner's strike, I know many who didn't want to strike. They were afraid of the consequences for themselves and their families if the strike should become long and drawn out. However, they were even more afraid of the consequences of being a so called blackleg. It was a choice between the devil and the Deep blue sea - Death by starvation or Death by stoning. If there must be a strike, then it should be a matter for the employer and the employees only - not for the general public, which includes the frail, the elderly, and, most important of all, the next generation of adults - our Children - who are Learning from our behaviour all the time. They are not involved in the dispute and have had no direct say in the matter. We live in a democratic society, for which we should be thankful. Margaret Thatcher, like her or not, was democratically elected to serve the needs of the British electorate, of which, speaking in shear numbers, the miners and their families were a minor part. Lord knows, it's not Always easy holding the purse strings and making ends meet in any household, particularly when all the family members Think that their wants and desires should be given first priority. Those holding the purse strings often have to make decisions which aren't popular with everyone. This is particularly true when the decisions involve meaking sacrifices. Don't beleive me? Ask any of the miners who Went on strike. A night at the club and even Sunday dinners became a thing of the past. Rental TVs were returned, holidays cancelled and later, when savings were depleted and loans and mortgages were still to be paid, cars, houses and even family pets were sold. It's called budgeting, reducing costs to release Money for more important things. This is a sound way of dealing with an economic crisis and in most housholds the family didn't wage war on the purse holder. They said their piece, agreed to disagree, accepted their lot and bowed out gracefully, - albeit with a pet lip the size of a dinner plate - but they did not, with the odd exception, wage war! Making ends meet in a household with 24 million in the family, which was already up over it's ears in debt, can not have been easy either. Whether the right decisions was made in sacrificing the coal mines we will never know. We can only guess how things may have been today if they had not. Some Think it would have been better, some Think not. It's a subjective judgement. The same goes in answering the question of whether it was the miners or the government who were being unreasonable.

My father once brought home a chunk of some kind of Crystals from Netherton pit. It weighed a ton, well, to me as a Child it did, and was in varying shades of Purple. Really Beautiful. It also decorated the Fireside. It stood on one end of the fender. Anybody remember those?

No strike should ever happen, Adam. Striking is an extremely childish action when it's taken by adults who have the Power to communicate through talking.

That brings back memories Eggy! But, If I'm remembering right then there shouldn't be 'flames' when toasting, just glowing, redhot coal. My favourite was with condensed milk or homemade rhubarb or blackberry jam and cocoa of course.

Are there any other memories of the miner's strike apart from the political issues? I remember it well for several reasons. I was working as a ward sister at the time and can still vividly recall two patients, both men in their late 70's, who were admitted with severe hypothermia due to not having any coal to light the fire at home. Both were retired miners. It was a tragic sight. The other thing I remember were my nurses on the ward. Many of them were miner's wives. They were hungry due to lack of food and tired due to lack of sleep caused by worry. They were continually upset that their Children were also hungry and going to school without breakfast. They were sad to see their husbands becoming shadows of their former selves due to the stress of the strike and what it was doing to the family. Many voiced opinions about the strike to me that they didn't dare admit to their husbands. I tried to see that their was Always food on the ward for them while they were at work by ordering the full quota of patient meals, even if their wasn't a full quota of patients, and their are quite a few Children who got some sort of breakfast thanks to all the extra bread, jam and cornflakes that we ward sisters stocked up with and then turned a blind Eye when it disappeared.

Thank you everyone for your very kind wishes. I spent a pleasant morning shovelling snow and a pleasant afternoon dancing around the Xmas tree with the grandchildren, followed by the family plundering the tree of everything that's edible, as is the custom here every year on 13th January. I actually managed to get a Cadbury's chocolate bell! Oh the sheer luxury! Happy memories. Foxy, I don't mind all these Candles. I feel that I'm doing this household a service by keeping the lighting bills down. I'm also doing the environment a service in causing less trees to be cut down to provide Wood to heat the house. Eggy, my crossing out and underlining problems are a thing of the past. If only someone with the right know-how could solve the new problems of mid-sentence capital letters popping up here and there, as well as my not being able to quote anyone, then this old woman would be very happy. Thanks again to everybody.

2.10 am, Ex.B, not 10am

Those people who Think you are a Geordie, based on your speech, may not be too falling too short of the mark, Adam. There are many definitions of what a Geordie is. My own belief has Always been that a Geordie is someone born within spitting distance of the Tyne - North bank or South bank. Symptoms, on the other hand, favours a definition that bestows this name only on those who are born on the North bank within hockling distance (slightly more difficult I would imagine). Then there's the traditional scots way of thinking about Geordies -they're just scots with their Brains bashed oot! I don't think there's any research based definition of what a Geordie is. However, when it comes to Geordie - the dialect - there is a wealth of research that describes it's various features and where it's spoken. Myself, I've never been able to hear any difference between my own dialect and that of someone from the banks of the Tyne but having said that, I have to admit that I haven't met too many from the North bank but have had a great deal of Contact with south bank dwellers and they talked just like me except for the odd word. Fortunately there are linguists who have studied it in depth and not too far in the distant past, so their findings are still very relevant. One of Britains leading linguists is David Crystal. He's a former professor of linguistics at Reading University and he was awarded an OBE in 1995 for his services to the study and teaching of the English language. His work has been widely published in over 40 volumes, so I think we can assume that he knows what he's talking about. He has this to say about the Geordie dialect: "The area around the R. Tyne, in NE England, and dominated by Newcastle, has a wide range of dialect features, often summed up in the label 'Geordie' (a Scottish nickname for George). This dialect area extends throughout Northumberland,and shares several features with Southern Scots". (Crystal, D. 1999:The Cambridge Encyclopedia of The English Language. Cambridge, Cambridge University Press. p 326) So, while the physical being, a Geordie, confines itself, by birthright and spitting ability, to the banks of the Tyne, the Geordie dialect does not. Chances are that we are all using it to some degree. Crystal goes on to describe some of the grammatical features of the dialect. These grammatical features are often more reliable than the vocabulary as the grammar of a language changes very slowly in comparison to the vocabulary, where words come and go at an alarming rate. In particular he describes some changes in the irregular verb system which appear to be unique for the Geordie dialect. He describes 21 irregular verbs which, in various dialects can be used in a non-standard manner in various urban dialects, including Geordie. He also describes 4 variations which are distinctive to the Geordie dialect area. These verbs are: treat, come, run, see and shrink. How much Geordie are you speaking? Test yourself: When speaking your own dialect to someone who speaks the same dialect, which of the following would you say: A. He tret his mother very badly. B. He treated his mother very badly. A. He's tret her badly for years. B. He's treated her badly for years. A. I come to see him last week B. I came to see him last week. A. They had came to see me the week before. B. They hade come to see me the week before. A. He run away wi the next door neighbour's wife. B. He ran a way wi the next door neighbour's wife. A. He had ran away with her sister last year. B. he had run away with her sister the year Before. A. A seen im last week in Blyth. B. A saw im last week in Blyth. A. A'd saw him a month ago in Morpeth. B. A'd seen him a month ago in Morpeth. A. I'm sorry pet. Ya frock shrunk in the washing. B. I'm sorry pet. Ya frock shrank in the washing. A. Did you say me frock had shrank in the washing? B. Did you say me frock had shrunk in the washing? Well? How much Geordie are you speaking in Bedlington? You'll find the answer on my profile. You may just be surprised. I know I was.

Pitmatic would be nearer the mark, Adam. It's Lovely isn't it!

Adam, I am quite certain that you don't speak a Northumbrian dialect. That's a traditional, rural dialect and as such it doesn't belong in the Bedlington area - assuming that anybody is still speaking it nowadays. Your dialect is more likely to be a modern, urban dialect - or even a hybrid. ( I'm assuming you were born and raised in the area). I'm in Gothenburg tomorrow, I'll pop into the English faculty at the uni and see what the British linguists are saying about dialects in the North East. I'll get back to you on it.

I remember Osgathorpe well. He married me to my first hubby. I've never forgiven him!

Hope you stay 'wound up' for a long time to come HPW. I love your stories!

"I talk with a Northumberland "sort" of" dialect (have yet to get the exact sort of dialect)" but if I'm on the phone in a council meeting, job interview, etc. I talk Standard English but somethings the Northumberland comes out" Well there you go, Adam. Aren't you being a bit hard on 'non-North easters' who can't pin-point your exact geographic origins when they hear you speak? Stop being irritated by them and instead be proud that you've retained enough of the North-East dialect (and North-East accent, when you speak standard English) that they can recognise which area you are from.

Adam and Brian, sorry but I'm unable to use the quote function. It appears to have been sacrificed in order to rid me of my underlining and crossing out problems. Don't get upset when anyone (other than a Sunderland supporter) calls you a geordie. As far as I know there are no visible distinguishing features that differentiate a geordie from a cockney or a brummy, so I'm assuming that they are making the deduction based on what they are hearing - your dialect or, more probably, your accent. There are no hard and fast boundaries among dialects. Many dialects share common features. This is particularly evident among neighbouring dialects and in the case of the North East dialects that's not so strange. They all originated from the language of the Angles, who occupied the whole area. In linguistic circles ALL of the North East dialects were previously grouped together under the name 'Northumbrian'. It's an outdated name now. Early linguists drew the Dividing line between northern and Southern dialects roughly from the river Humber to the River Ribble so, surprisingly, even the scots dialect was classed as northern. In the late 1940s through to the early 1960s there was a huge survey of English dialects (the Dieth-Orton Survey). It was based on rural communities and the researchers found that the North/South boundary had moved much further South - the Dividing line running diagonally south west from Humberside to the South Midlands. In other words, many dialect features of the North east were now being Heard way outside of the Northumberland area. They also found that very few people spoke traditional dialects. Since then there have been a number of smaller studies and these have been based on urban- rather than rural communities. That's good, because industrialization brought with it urbanisation and this has influenced dialects enormously. These later studies reflect the ever increasing mobility of the population and the changing social structure. People move about more, class barriers have diminished and dialects and sociolects are able to rub shoulders with each other on a Daily basis. They rub off on each other. That's progress - or decay, depending how you look at it. Very few people today speak a Northumbrian dialect. I will be very surprised if you do. Most speak standard English with a North East accent. My guess is that you do too. When a 'southerner' says you're a geordie he 's not aware of the fine Dividing lines that northerners themselves impose upon the North East dialect (as it's called today). He's only aware of certain dialectal features assosciated with the North East and the name of a prominent north east city. The Word 'geordie is intranationally accepted to mean 'of or belonging to the North East of England'. Ask a handful of northerners which dialect a Londoner speaks and the odds are they'll all answer Cockney - even if it was only spoken in a very small area of the city and today is spoken by very few. Cockney, to a northerner, is synonomous with London dwellers - all of them. While you're at it ask them to tell you the differences between Geordie and Northumbrian. I doubt if any of them will be able to enlighten you about any differences in the language itself, only the area they think it comes from. Don't be offended by people who call you a geordie. Be proud that they've recognised that you come from the Norh East.

My mother used those Words too, Eileen.

oxters = armpits

It's in no way 'posh', Vic. It's standard English - which every Child in Britain is taught in school. Standard English is in fact also a dialect - a dialect that is used as the institutionalized norm in a Community. It usually has a bit of prestige, because it's used in administrative institutions, but isn't posh. Standardization is not, as many seem to Think, a result of the influences of BBc and other media. Standardization of the English language started way back in the 11th century. That standard English has it's roots in a Southern county dialect isn't a matter of that dialect being deliberately chosen to represent the Enlish language. It just happened. There have been a great many influences at work over the centuries in making standard English what it is today. Prior to the Norman conquest the Brits used west saxon to communicate but after the Norman conquest, 1066, the seat of power moved from Winchester to London and most changes in the language started to emerge then and continued doing so for the next 300 years. By the mid 14th Century the growth of a standardized English from the London area can be seen in many old documents. The dialect in London at that time was really a mixture of several dialects and the central Londoner's way of speaking was influenced by the Essex-, Westminster- and Middlesex dialects but little by little these merged into one dialect. Most of the Changes that we can see relate to London's development as the political, social and Commercial centre of Britain. (The same can be said for most, if not all, 'standard' languages in Europé. They all have their origins in the dialect of the area which became 'the seat of power'). That's not so strange when you Think about it. That's where the Money was. In the case of English, the most significant influence was probably the setting up of the administrative offices of the London Chancery. Thanks to them, huge amounts of documents were hand-copied in and around London and many standardizations emerged thanks to the Chancery scribes. These standardizations spread among other scribes who worked privately and soon many other types of texts began to include their standardizations. It was only a short step then to the ultimate standardization that was necessary when Caxton set up his Printing press - also in the London area of Westminster. That's a very potted version of the major influences. There are of course many other influences at work, even today. Language is a living thing, it's constantly changing, it will Always be changing. It's Always trying to find ways of refining the process of Communication and there is nothing we can do to stem the tide of language change. Some see these Changes as progress and others see them as a sort of decay. We can't stop it. If we could then we would all still be speaking like Chaucer. I can understand Symptoms feelings about how it sounds to try speaking posh but often it's done without any conscious awareness and most often to aid Communication. Of course it can sound odd to hear a northern, or any other, accent (the vowelsounds and melody of a dialect) imposed on a Southern dialect. It's like hanging an easter egg on a Christmas tree - not quite what we are used to. But it's not wrong If it aids Communication and sense of identity/belonging it can never be wrong, only different.

Thanks Malcolm! It's 10 years ago. Just shows how much I know about what's going on back home. Hallelujah for sites like Bedders!