threegee

2 minutes ago, mercuryg said:

If you don't believe there are irredeemable people then there's not really I can say, apart from there are lots. I'm not really interested in your questions, to be honest, because I don't think you're really interested in my answers; you're right, and everybody else is wrong, and that will always be the case. I'm a bit busy today, got to earn a living. 

Here we are back to the indirect ad hominem.  The reason you won't answer any clarifying questions is "because I don't think you're really interested in my answers; you're right, and everybody else is wrong, and that will always be the case".  i.e. I'm badly motivated, so that apparently justifies the refusal to examine your own highly inconsistent ideas.

Yes, I do think there aren't irredeemable people, but if we aren't vigilant and challenge evil belief sets we can easily get into a situation where there is no practical alternative to eliminating the people and not the ideas.  That's why apologists for such belief sets are themselves dangerous to society, and need to be challenged.

If you do find the time to reply in a spirit of free discussion and not personal attack, then I'm happy to resume a friendly discussion.

I'm simply curious to examine your ideas of good and evil.  You tell us "some people are evil."  I want to know who those evil people are.

You see I don't believe there are any irredeemable people, only irredeemable ideas.  Islam is one of those irredeemable ideas, and has no place in a modern civilised society.  I want to examine exactly why you are an apologist for it.  How is determining what you believe is evil "introducing something that is of no relevance" in a discussion about evil?

I answer your questions directly, but you seek to dodge mine.

On 22/02/2018 at 10:12, mercuryg said:

Apologies, you wrote 'sleeper jihadists'. I'm not sure that's any better, but if you prefer it, good for you.

I like this bit: "That's not how I see the evil of Islam." No, it's not, is it? Islam is not evil; some people are evil. Some Christians are evil, some atheists are evil, some of every race, creed, religion, however you want to pigeonhole people, are evil. In every single case where evil is perpetrated, it's down the the person involved. To blame religion is a convenient get-out clause, and one that really doesn't wash. At least, however, you nail your flag to the mast, and admit that you think Islam evil.

I have read bits of the Quran, though not all, and it's just another religious script. What I don't take kindly to is such as this: "don't for one second believe that it is equivalent to the Christian Bible in its current relevance". I don't need you to tell me what to believe (heaven forbid anyone needs you to tell them what to believe); you're no advert for sensible thinking, for a start. I also question why you feel the need to advise me as such; are you worried that I might find that, in fact, it IS equivalent to the Christian bible etc? Seriously, there's a high horse under you; if you're going to make points that people are happy to take on board, you need to get off it.

As for the TV show; it would be a fantasy one, in which the UK will be an Islamic state in a few years. Probably called' The Daily Mail'.

 

Pigeonholing people is what the left do, and certainly not me!  Because of this they do exactly what you do above: rather than tackling ideas which they can't handle they go in for ad hominem attacks.

You are telling us that Islam is not an evil.  So what in your book is an evil?  Let's take Naziism and its own manual Hitler's Mein Kampf - simple question: are those evils?  Keep you answer short and straightforward, so's not to muddy the waters please?

We've just suffered an event very close to the election of a new President of the US of A.  In fact it's more relevant than that as last time I looked we were still an EU vassal state; so he's our president (or at least the principal one).  Tuning in to the Brussels Broadcasting Corporation Thursday morning, I confidently expected Martin Selmayr to be headline news.  If his "appointment" was ever even mentioned in the morning program I must have dozed off again.  Ever expectant I tuned in to every BBC news bulletin throughout the day without any mention of the great event.  OK, this is sure to be featured on the in-depth Newsnight, I told myself.   Nope, not a proverbial dickey!  This adds to the long catalogue of the bias by omission and editorial selection that has characterised BBC coverage over the last decade or two, and which gets progressively worse.

To make up for the BBC's shyness in covering the event let me report second hand what one "highly surprised" EUrocrat is now on record as saying:

Quote

“..he takes all the power – completely!”

That's an interesting observation in respect of an organisation which is prefaced on taking power and holding on to it, no matter what!

Martin who?  Well the surname is Selmayr, and he's a 47-year-old German lawyer known as a "monster eurocrat", and the "Rasputin of Brussels".

Nothing to do with me you say...  well, not quite.  By some mysterious process he just became "Secretary General of the European Commission".  Still nothing to do with me you say, as he's not even in the European Parliament.  You'd be right there, as he's now the guy that heads the junta that hands down law for the European Parliament to rubber stamp - law which our great and good have "wisely" made transcendent to English law.  Understand why he's got a smirk on his face, and old Juncks is looking like... well... am I going to get away with this?

Why was this professional lawyer appointed by the Brussels mafia?  Well... "Mr Selmayr, who was previously Mr Juncker's chief of staff, is a vocal supporter of European federalism and one of the EU's most vehement opponents of Brexit."

On 11/02/2018 at 21:57, Eggy1948 said:

Too technical for me - just checked and the upload photo is back to 34 x 25.5 - I'll ask the wife, or perhaps 3g can deviate from the original topic and explain this 

My excuse is that I didn't write the software, but Andy might have had a hand in the authorship. My excuse is that IF I'd been capable of writing it, then I most certainly wouldn't have written it in PHP!  [private joke there] 

On 06/02/2018 at 18:29, Steve Turnbull said:

Oh and 3G, those ‘sleeper activists’. This isn’t a TV show. 

You placed single quotes around the words sleeper and activist.  Please point out where I ever used either of those words, or apologise for the misquote.

That's not how I see the evil of Islam.  How I see Islam is in the terms radical Islamists mockingly tell us to see.  They mock because they can see our weakness, and realise - as many in the West do -  that our so-called liberalism makes many of us blind to their strategy.  They also rejoice in the fact that in current times those liberal values mitigate against basic common sense.  Read the Quran, and don't for one second believe that it is equivalent to the Christian Bible in its current relevance.  If you've any doubts listen to what reformed Muslims have to say.

Which TV show do you suppose I imagine?

That's pretty much it Maggie, except it doesn't mention the "Mare" (seafood).  Don't go near that myself, as I draw the line at eating things that look back at me or have suckers.

Brits keep getting asked why they reside here. It's a mystery to the Italians as many of them want to get to Northern Europe or the UK to get employment - the EU having completely b*****ed the once strong economy for at least the last decade. If you say the climate they never quite understand this, so it's easier to just say the food. Then, they just smile broadly and agree.

One of the first things you have to get used to is the growing seasons - and this certainly isn't high summer, which kills things like normal grass stone dead, and just about everything apart from the cacti struggles to survive. So, UK style lawns are a huge luxury, and very few waste time and effort growing things you can't eat/sell.  There are actually two growing seasons a year, and things like tomatoes have to be kept in partial shade.  Even oranges, lemons, etc. grow best with a bit of shade from other trees.  I killed the one banana palm here the first year by not turning the provided irrigation system on every day.  No one bothered to tell us it needed loads more water than the other palms - something we were apparently supposed to know!  Root veggies don't do at all well in this soil though, so things like spuds are mainly imported into the region.

Practically everyone has plenty of land, and lots of produce swapping goes on, even if you didn't actually tell them they could help themselves.  The attitude is that they know you would want them to have it, so they are doing you a favour by not bothering you!  If you don't want to swap a little for personal use you put up a fence, and there aren't too many fences.  So, healthy and varied diet, and (when you need to buy them) many (but not all) foods are cheaper than in the UK - especially the wine!

13 hours ago, pilgrim said:

am thinking that the last time we entered Europe was dunkirke ??

Wasn't the "dunkirke" thing a (glorious?) exit and not an entry?  Normandy could be the place to think.

18 hours ago, Canny lass said:

I fail to see why Clement Atlee would be needed now at all. He opposed Britain’s entry to the European Union ...

For a pedant you don't half blunder on into irrelevancy!  The "European Union" wasn't a public issue in his time, and he was clearly referring to the EEC.

Thanks for the "research" anyway, as I'd always assumed that (like naive young me) he would have taken what he was told at face value, and voted for EEC membership.  In fact the reason I raised the matter was simply his sage advice "That is no way to go into a negotiation. You ought to go into a negotiation on the basis that they have need of you, not just you of them."  Pretty relevant to Mrs May & Co. right now I would have thought, and hopefully obvious to other readers.  And... that's the fullness of it - no essay required!

P.S.  I sort of cringe to say it - unpedantic as is my nature - but I've always assumed the old BUDC was spot on when named Attlee Park!

14 hours ago, mercuryg said:

I don't think he'll answer you, he's dead.

Got there first time, this time around!  And... dead with him any shred of patriotism or basic integrity in the British Labour Party! 

Corbyn Labour wouldn't even risk a spokesperson's exposure to the Brussels Broadcasting Corporation at lunchtime. So zero hope our local Einstein will attempt to explain their position on the EU to the little people.  It would doubtless be a painfully protracted form of "Four legs good, two legs bad." - so maybe a small mercy?

Quote

[August 1962]

I confess I feel gravely disturbed. We are allying ourselves with six nations of Europe; it may be more, but six at present. Four of those we rescued only twenty years or so ago from domination by the other two.

[Three months later]

Unfortunately, in this country the propaganda for entering the Common Market has been largely based on defeatism. We are told that unless we do it we are going to have a terrible time. That is no way to go into a negotiation. You ought to go into a negotiation on the basis that they have need of you, not just you of them.

--- Clement Attlee

What's your take on this Mr Lavery?  We really need to know!

13 minutes ago, mercuryg said:

Berlusconi is reflecting the views of most people, yet his group of collective parties isn't likely to get a majority according to that article?

I'm not agitated; I'm enjoying it. I have a quiet day at work. By the way, here's a tip for recognising when someone is really struggling to keep their place in a discussion: they start calling people names like 'leftie' and so on, as you have done! It's a dead giveaway! It's the equivalent of throwing ones toys out of the pram. That's what getting agitated looks like!

This isn't a real country by Anglo Saxon standards, and is still very regionalised.  It's what made it a push over for the EU.  Berlusconi has his areas of support in the center of politics. The Northern League are far to the right of him and they have their geographic areas.  You would certainly call the Northern League right wing extremists.  My point is that all major parties are now advocating policies which you would label extremist.

I think your supposed "right wing" views are international capitalist, and you'd have been a Tony Blair supporter in the times before he was totally discredited in the eyes of practically all UK voters.  Tell me this isn't true?  I'd be interested to hear your take on Corbyn when you've a moment.

3 minutes ago, mercuryg said:

Once again (you must remember I've mentioned it before) who said I'm a 'leftie'? Furthermore, a bit rich calling me a 'keyboard warrior'; your posts on here are far more numerous than mine. If attaching misguided labels to me in an attempt to discredit is the best you can do, you haven't got much to go on, have you? Also, I see nothing in that article that indicates that is how 'ordinary people' are thinking; it's all about a former politician who is banned from office, and a bloke with a penchant for Nazi memorabilia. 3/10. Must try harder. You're not coming across at all well here if that's your idea of the average bloke on the street, even in Italy!

Excuse me but you've told us all quite clearly in the past that you hold left wing views, and are proud of this!

Good use of the old Ad Hominem there Merc!  Berlusconi is reflecting the views of most people - it's how he regularly gets elected.  The bent EU compliant judiciary have tried to disqualify him, but he keeps on coming back as he represents the views of the majority in a large part of the country.  Upstart and left wing Five Star will get most of the votes in the South, and they need to adopt exactly the same tone to get a majority.  There are right wing extremist parties but they won't get near government.

You are getting very agitated and irrational as the world increasing fails to conform with your ideas of how things must be.  I like the "even in Italy!"    Try Israel: Israel to Deport 40,000 Illegal Immigrants

1 minute ago, mercuryg said:

Oh, they are. Talk to a cross section of people, ordinary, everyday people (as I do often!) and I guarantee your views are radical. Few people believe that in a few years there are going to be Islamic sleeper cells wreaking havoc, for example, because there are not. Most people accept that Muslims are just people, who worship a religion that differs from that followed by a small minority of people in the UK. Or, seriously, do you think your views on this are actually mainstream? I suggest you get out more. Perhaps cycle 35km the other way next time, and talk to more than a couple of people? Maybe choose some of different persuasions? It might help you understand things a little better, as people are more of a representation of reality than graphs and statistics. 

Always amusing how leftie keyboard warriors urge people who are in touch with the real world to get out into it.

This is what "ordinary people" here think: Social bomb ready to explode’ Berlusconi pledges to deport 600,000 illegal immigrants

And... before you tell us it's the right wing extremist Daily Express, this is the sanitised version of what you'll find in the Italian press!  Italy is far from alone, and even the brain dead conformist Germans have had enough.

Regarding the "some of different persuasions": left wing Five Star is promising more or less the same, so it's now beyond simple left right politics here.

2 hours ago, pilgrim said:

maybe we should consider what we are going to do with all the folk we exported over many hundreds of years?

If you are referring to slavery, we pioneered the abolition of that - a practice which had gone on for thousands of years before we brought the forces off Empire to bear on it.   But you lefties only wish to highlight the bad of Empire (and remove it from historical context) and never the overwhelming good.

Your historical arguments have just been blown out of the water, and you still refuse to address the here and now!  I ask you once more: how many immigrants are enough?

4 hours ago, Steve Turnbull said:

And you somehow draw a link between this and ‘sleeper cells’? I had you down as intelligent but with radical views. I’m now wondering whether you’re just another who believes what the Daily Mail tells them. I’m not the one with the illusions.

The "somehow" is evident if you read the earlier posts.  There are two dimensions to this unprecedented mass immigration and the left loves to muddy the waters by conflating them.  Though, at the end of the day, the both represent an existential threat to our country and to Europe as a whole.

My views ar anything but radical, though representing moderate views like mine as radical and extremist is the way the left furthers its own brand of extremism.  People aren't quite as stupid as they think, though decades of infiltration into the media and education system is going to be a hard one to tackle.

2 hours ago, pilgrim said:

here is some food for thought -  do you really feel threatened? 

Quote

....in the eighty years between 1851 and 1931, the population born abroad increased by only about one million. It increased slowly after the Second World War, growing by less than two million in the forty years between 1951 and 1991. In the late 1990s the pace and scale of migration increased to a level without historical precedent. Indeed the foreign born population of England and Wales more than doubled, increasing by nearly four million in the twenty years between the 1991 and 2011 censuses. It has now reached 13.4% of our population. This massive increase dwarfs the scale of any previous inflow in our history.

https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/48

Note that the above in no way represents the ongoing dilution of the native population it's simply new immigrants.  The last census was seven years ago now, and can't include illegals - of which the government hasn't a clue how many.  If you are advocating further mass immigration then you need to tell us how many is enough Pilgrim?

I can tell you right now that the population HERE really does feel threatened.  All that is keeping a lid on things is EU slush/hush money, a lot of which is going into the hands of unscrupulous people.  That money can't continue, and the numbers are still going up.  I ask you again: how many is enough?

3 hours ago, Steve Turnbull said:

Oh and 3G, those ‘sleeper activists’. This isn’t a TV show. 

Islam's time horizon is a lot longer than any Brit's (including me).  Islamists are still living the crusades, and if you think this is a fiction I''d be happy to enlighten you.

This afternoon I cycled 35Km over the dirt roads on the coastal plane here - no Italian would do this. I was chased by feral dogs but got a glimpses of the conditions many (mainly) sub-Saharan Africans are living in and spoke to a couple.  Stick to your illusions - until the wake up call!  There are millions more on the way!

No CL, I'm not an immigrant!  I'm British, and my documents clearly say "resident".  I'm not going to argue with that in any way at all. 

Quite unlike foreign residents from the EU who come to the UK, I don't get to tell my hosts how they should run their country, and that is how it should be.  I wasn't permitted to vote in the recent referendum on constitutional change, and I wouldn't have presumed to do this anyway, as at best I've only a lifetime interest.  If I'd been forced to vote I'd have agreed with the majority, and said "we don't trust the EUrophiles".  They are actually about to vote again, and I don't think you (or Brussels) will like the result.

7 hours ago, mercuryg said:

That's terrifying. Every time I see a Pakistani I hide. I'd suggest digging a bunker. 

We don't need to dig our own bunkers here as there are plenty of illegals who will dig anything for peanuts.  In fact Italy is now discovering the British lawn - formerly impossible due to the 24/7 labour intensive nurturing of real grass.

No, bunkers aren't necessary anywhere; though I would advise avoiding any public gatherings in a few years time when the sleeper jihadists are activated.

5 hours ago, Canny lass said:

Think medication!

If you can't see the core difference between someone who sneaks into a country flouting all the rules, and someone who goes through the proper immigration procedures and is accepted or rejected on their basic merits and value to another society, then I'm happy to pass on this medication to someone who is in far greater need - you!

Please tell us where this universal right to the product of other people's (and their ancestor's) labours ends?  With most socialists it seems to end at their own doorstep.  BTW I'm told that Happy was over the moon with his new bike and sent me his regards, but I think that he's still waiting for your address and phone number.  In view of the above you shouldn't have a problem with the fact that he (in common with the others, and on good sound advice) threw his temporary papers away.

Correction CL: you are a LEGAL immigrant! You're also someone who isn't lying about persecution, or even where they come from, in order to obtain economic advantage. I also doubt that you are in touch with fifty relatives who also want to sneak in without paperwork. And... if the Swedes say ENOUGH you probably won't call them racists for not wanting the major social problems that unlimited immigration causes.

Anyway, it's Spring here and all starting up again. The offer is still open: tell me how many you want and I will point them your way. Something even more worrying is that there are now significant numbers of Pakistanis in the boats.

I've just done a bike up for my Nigerian friend "Happy" so he can get from his hotel to the supermarket car park on the other side of town with less risk of being own down on these treacherous roads, and the way things are shaping up here this might not be a genuine accident. Happy - like all the Nigerians - is perfectly honest that he comes from what Trump quite correctly calls a s-hole country. He probably won't be quite so honest with officials though, as the network tells him exactly what he needs to say to gain max Merkel brownie points. He speaks far better English than most locals and has no intention of taking the brain dead German government up on their language lessons offer. Like all the others he'll be on his way before too long, and I hope he gets a good price for the bike to help him along.

P.S. Don't worry about your Sterling pension; another Eurozone crisis coming. The "more free stuff" EU will run out of other people's money in true socialist fashion before too long, and their friends the bankers need to move things around wildly at intervals in order to keep up their lifestyle. Think swings and roundabouts.

We must leave the EU completely in March 2019 - No transition period, No delay

Quote

Theresa May is betraying the British people who voted to leave the EU by making the UK stay in until 2021 and paying billions of pounds to the EU while we stay. No immigration control, no border control, no sovereignty - an absolute betrayal of the 17 million voters who chose to leave.

Elizabeth Watson's petition is doing amazingly well: 27,147 signatures now and about 5000 up on when I signed it last night.  Actually... pretty disgusting that we should even need to petition so very long after the referendum. Vested interest walks the corridors of power in our country, and we've a long way to go to "drain the swamp".

Two f's in Rediffusion!   Which was the trading name of Broadcast Relay Service Ltd.

Last full owner was The British Electric Traction Company plc - them wot formerly operated the trams in many cities - demise of the whole thing around 1988 I think.