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Andy Millne

Beep if you hate UKIP

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I just had an interesting chat with some sixth formers with posters outside UKIP Bedlington HQ. Good to see them getting their views across. Even though in my opinion they misunderstood a few key problems and their core message was a bit misguided and influenced by their opinions of some UKIP supporters not necessarily UKIP policies, they did a good job of constructing well formed arguments. I'm sure we'll see them again and I invited them to discuss their views on here.

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Passed you when you were chatting to them this afternoon Fourgee.

 

Seems they were there on Friday too.

 

Keep at them to join our site. It would be nice to hear there thoughts.

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I see the sign above their office is misspelt, surely it's missing an i ? ;)

post-21-0-49582300-1430168497_thumb.jpg

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I see the sign above their office is misspelt, surely it's missing an i ? ;)

There, i fixed it

post-21-0-49531000-1430168971_thumb.png

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Must be nowt on the Telly again. ;)

 

Never is Foxy  :icecream:

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Good for the youngsters! Not stating a political preference in any way, simply good to see the younger generation getting into politics in any way, shape or form. I hope they'll be at the Make a Noise demo....

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Agreed mercuryg.

These young people are the future.

The old guard need to take notice and connect.

Apart from certain individuals on this site there seems a lack of involvement by the political elite of Bedlington.

Locally and nationally where are these people who should be fighting for our town.

By their silence on issues they say so much.

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I'd love to hear from the Ukip haters here exactly what they hate?  It seems to Kippers that what they actually hate is their own country.

 

My take on this is that the haters have swallowed establishment propaganda hook line and sinker.  That's a huge victory for the establishment, and for the very status quo that those people rail against.  Setting individual against individual and thoroughly controlling the discourse guarantees the continuance of the Westminster political elites.

 

You can excuse those young kids for still carrying the second-hand views of their last teacher, but adults really should do their own investigation.

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Reading the first post it seems these young people knew the arguments and were making up their own minds.

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Given the facts people decide for themselves.

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I don't like UKIP  because it is based on nationalism and a lot of it's supporters are racist bigots. It's leader is the sort of "man down the pub" that I would go out of my way to avoid. I do not hate my own country because of a lot of factors. Science, Literature, the longbow preventing the so called noble leaders from having their own way, a long history of ordinary men and women fighting against injustice. A sense of anarchy and a fight against authoritarianism. The Tolpuddle Martyrs. The Levellers and the Chartists. The abolition of slavery.The beheading of King Charles. The changes fought for by the Labour and trade union movement. Universal suffrage, the Enlightenment. British humour satire and irony. The Goons, Monty Python the Young Ones. Eccentrics like Spike Milligan, Stephen Fry, Richard Dawkins, Emily Davison. Religeous toleration. The National health service. A welfare safety net so that people don't starve. Pioneering public health to prevent disease. And to say I hate my country because I dislike a very right wing political party is nonsense. I served in the Army and saw active service. However I do not think that other countries in Europe and the World have not got a lot to offer the people of the world. Nothing I've seen or heard from UKIP or its supporters have made me think that they would make this country or the world a better place. p.s. I tend to be anti-establishment.  

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I don't like UKIP  because it is based on nationalism and a lot of it's supporters are racist bigots. It's leader is the sort of "man down the pub" that I would go out of my way to avoid. I do not hate my own country because of a lot of factors. Science, Literature, the longbow preventing the so called noble leaders from having their own way, a long history of ordinary men and women fighting against injustice. A sense of anarchy and a fight against authoritarianism. The Tolpuddle Martyrs. The Levellers and the Chartists. The abolition of slavery.The beheading of King Charles. The changes fought for by the Labour and trade union movement. Universal suffrage, the Enlightenment. British humour satire and irony. The Goons, Monty Python the Young Ones. Eccentrics like Spike Milligan, Stephen Fry, Richard Dawkins, Emily Davison. Religeous toleration. The National health service. A welfare safety net so that people don't starve. Pioneering public health to prevent disease. And to say I hate my country because I dislike a very right wing political party is nonsense. I served in the Army and saw active service. However I do not think that other countries in Europe and the World have not got a lot to offer the people of the world. Nothing I've seen or heard from UKIP or its supporters have made me think that they would make this country or the world a better place. p.s. I tend to be anti-establishment.  

 

That's really interesting, because it sounds like much of what you say is self-contradictory. Notice I said "sounds like" because I'm sure you are very clear in what you believe.  You say you don't like Ukip because "it is based on nationalism", but go on to put forward a very nationalistic view.  Simple question: do you personally know many of these "racist bigots" or is this simply what you've been led to believe by the media?  I know lots on actual Ukip members but there's not a single one any reasonable person could call either "racist" or bigoted.  They are all concerned where our country is headed, yes - but, none of them is any more "jingoistic" or more nationalistic than an average Brit.  In fact I'd say that they are universally not very far from the average Brit in their views, simply a bit ahead of the curve in their assessment of our situation.

 

You sound like you don't think the EU is a terribly good idea for us, but seem to prefer EU Party #1, EU Party #2, and EU Party #3 to the only party that believes that our nation should retain its links with Europe, but not be ruled by Europe.  The only rampantly nationalistic party we have is EU Party #4 (the SNP)  Unusually, for a political party, I think the clue is in the name ;).  Like all forms of extreme nationalism I think we can all predict that that one will end in tears.

 

Finally, you say you "tend to be anti-establishment", yet here again you turn your back on the only anti-establishment party that has any chance of pricking the establishment bubble. It seems to me that while professing to be anti-establishment you are in fact buying 100% into the establishment's myth of their eternal right to rule.

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That's really interesting, because it sounds like much of what you say is self-contradictory. Notice I said "sounds like" because I'm sure you are very clear in what you believe.  You say you don't like Ukip because "it is based on nationalism", but go on to put forward a very nationalistic view.  Simple question: do you personally know many of these "racist bigots" or is this simply what you've been led to believe by the media?  I know lots on actual Ukip members but there's not a single one any reasonable person could call either "racist" or bigoted.  They are all concerned where our country is headed, yes - but, none of them is any more "jingoistic" or more nationalistic than an average Brit.  In fact I'd say that they are universally not very far from the average Brit in their views, simply a bit ahead of the curve in their assessment of our situation.

 

You sound like you don't think the EU is a terribly good idea for us, but seem to prefer EU Party #1, EU Party #2, and EU Party #3 to the only party that believes that our nation should retain its links with Europe, but not be ruled by Europe.  The only rampantly nationalistic party we have is EU Party #4 (the SNP)  Unusually, for a political party, I think the clue is in the name ;).  Like all forms of extreme nationalism I think we can all predict that that one will end in tears.

 

Finally, you say you "tend to be anti-establishment", yet here again you turn your back on the only anti-establishment party that has any chance of pricking the establishment bubble. It seems to me that while professing to be anti-establishment you are in fact buying 100% into the establishment's myth of their eternal right to rule.

OK 3G Inform me on this thread what Ukip stands for. What their policies are. What's in their manifesto and what are their official views on Immigration, emigration, Law and order, Defence. The Economy. Education. Health and safety at work. Trade unionism. The National Health service. Foreign aid and foreign policy. Relationship with the USA. Local Government. Electoral reform. The minimum wage, Pensions. You often tell people how they're being hoodwinked by the political establishment but we need to know what the alternative is. Look forward to a proper reply so that my "sleeping brain" can decide whether to wake up or not.   

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By the way 3g I'm not trying to put you on the spot I genuinely want to know these things.

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I know you're not! :)

 

http://www.ukip.org/manifesto2015  Scroll down and hit the button.

 

If 76 pages is too much, and you want a printed "short form" one, I understand that they are handing them out at Front Street East. This is the only party manifesto at this election that has been fully costed by professional bodies, so the figures all add up.  They had to, else they would have been torn to shreds by establishment politicos. These policies were decided on by ordinary members and aren't the result of spin doctors, focus groups, or political tit for tat trading.

 

I honestly tried reading the Labour one myself, but it was all hyperbole, and by page 28 I'd seen no hard information, so gave up at that point.  IMHO the Tory one isn't even worth starting as Cast-iron-promise Dave has always done exactly what he likes; manifesto promises are ignored, and stuff not in the manifesto is rushed through parliament to suit his whim.

 

BTW If you do nothing else then skip forward to page 66.  I've never served in the forces myself but I think the way we treat the people who have is shameful.  I'm told by a military guy that the present force's vote is solidly Ukip.

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You're perfectly right regarding the military 3G, they are firmly behind UKIP, a lot of them have probably read our manifesto and find that it speaks for them. They have been treated shamefully, not only by the current Tory government, but the Labour government of 13 years before them. Between them they have decimated our armed forces to a point that they are being dismissed by many countries as insignificant in world military terms.

 

As an ex soldier myself I know that it hurts the pride very badly of all serving and ex serving soldiers. These governments shame us, where we could, in the past, always hold our head up with pride in the military world, we are now beginning to feel inferior because of the continual slashing of personnel, and therefore capability. If they continue with this stupid headlong race toward the 'European Army' policy, we are going to end up the laughing stock of the world.

 

Everyone is fully aware of their (Labour and Tory) intention of reducing the army from the present ludicrous strength of 83,000 to an even more ludicrous strength of 60.000 in preparation for induction into the European Army. This will mean the end of NATO, how stupid can our politicians be.

 

My personal opinion is, that all of the current and previous members of parliament dating back to 1972 should all go over to France and Belgium and p*** on the graves of those brave men who fought and died in two world wars to prevent what these excuses for politicians are allowing to happen right now. And that is: 'TO PREVENT OUR COUNTRY FALLING INTO THE HANDS OF A FOREIGN POWER'. That power now being the faceless, conniving bureaucrat's known as the EU.

 

UKIP is the only party that truly supports our military and it's covenant. No other party has expressed this kind of support to restore it's strength and capability to be able to react on the world stage effectively.

Edited by foxy

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I don't like UKIP  because it is based on nationalism and a lot of it's supporters are racist bigots. It's leader is the sort of "man down the pub" that I would go out of my way to avoid. I do not hate my own country because of a lot of factors. Science, Literature, the longbow preventing the so called noble leaders from having their own way, a long history of ordinary men and women fighting against injustice. A sense of anarchy and a fight against authoritarianism. The Tolpuddle Martyrs. The Levellers and the Chartists. The abolition of slavery.The beheading of King Charles. The changes fought for by the Labour and trade union movement. Universal suffrage, the Enlightenment. British humour satire and irony. The Goons, Monty Python the Young Ones. Eccentrics like Spike Milligan, Stephen Fry, Richard Dawkins, Emily Davison. Religeous toleration. The National health service. A welfare safety net so that people don't starve. Pioneering public health to prevent disease. And to say I hate my country because I dislike a very right wing political party is nonsense. I served in the Army and saw active service. However I do not think that other countries in Europe and the World have not got a lot to offer the people of the world. Nothing I've seen or heard from UKIP or its supporters have made me think that they would make this country or the world a better place. p.s. I tend to be anti-establishment.  

 

What a great post; I think, threegee, smudge's reference to 'nationalism' is a different sort of nationalism to that you are referrign in your response, and I also think you're aware of this.

 

I'm still undecided as to where to vote, mainly because - as I've said before - the current breed of party leaders leave me cold and unmoved; I have been primarily left wing most of my adult life, but these days the Labour party is a sham, a pale vision of what it should stand for, and to my eyes, the true labour movement died with John Smith. I wouldn't countenance voting forthr rich party, and the lib-dems are a waste of space, so that really leaves me with UKIP and the Greens. Well, UKIP, to be frank. The problem is they are so hell bent on the immigration card that it bothers me, and to no small amount. Immigration is not the biggest problem this country has, by any means, it's simply the one the Daily Mail reader thinks is the biggest problem. Threegee, and supporters, talk of the indoctrination of the people by the political elite - UKIP are as bad as the rest. I have to confess, however, that having looked carefully - well, as carefully as I'm bothered - at the options, it is UKIP that fits the bill more than others.If they got rid of the bumbling buffoon who tries, but fails, to come across as the Man of the People as its leader, and installed someone who actually is down to earth and an average bloke (or woman) then I'd be more inclined to support them without reluctance.

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Also...

 

"I'd love to hear from the Ukip haters here exactly what they hate?"

 

Then ask them; there's a group of youngsters gather outside the Bedlington office, I hear, and from what I've also heard, they are quite happy to discuss.

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Also...

 

"I'd love to hear from the Ukip haters here exactly what they hate?"

 

Then ask them; there's a group of youngsters gather outside the Bedlington office, I hear, and from what I've also heard, they are quite happy to discuss.

 

If I were able to I certainly would.  They've been invited here to state their views in detail, I do hope they will. I fear that they are the views of their left wing teachers though, and that they have been fed a continual diet of lies and media distortion.

 

Update:  Whoops I missed the obvious in the earlier post. direct download link here.

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What a great post; I think, threegee, smudge's reference to 'nationalism' is a different sort of nationalism to that you are referrign in your response, and I also think you're aware of this.

 

I'm still undecided as to where to vote, mainly because - as I've said before - the current breed of party leaders leave me cold and unmoved; I have been primarily left wing most of my adult life, but these days the Labour party is a sham, a pale vision of what it should stand for, and to my eyes, the true labour movement died with John Smith. I wouldn't countenance voting forthr rich party, and the lib-dems are a waste of space, so that really leaves me with UKIP and the Greens. Well, UKIP, to be frank. The problem is they are so hell bent on the immigration card that it bothers me, and to no small amount. Immigration is not the biggest problem this country has, by any means, it's simply the one the Daily Mail reader thinks is the biggest problem. Threegee, and supporters, talk of the indoctrination of the people by the political elite - UKIP are as bad as the rest. I have to confess, however, that having looked carefully - well, as carefully as I'm bothered - at the options, it is UKIP that fits the bill more than others.If they got rid of the bumbling buffoon who tries, but fails, to come across as the Man of the People as its leader, and installed someone who actually is down to earth and an average bloke (or woman) then I'd be more inclined to support them without reluctance.

 

I think you might find that if Nigel doesn't win Thanet but the party gets its first decent foothold in parliament - as is fairly inevitable - then Douglas Carswell will step forward as leader.  It's simply not the one man show as the media makes out.  Douglas will appeal to a lot more tribal Tory voters as he's much less in-your-face than Nigel.

It's actually a great pity that you didn't meet Paul Nutall in Bedlington the other night, as I think he's very much the sort of politician you mention.  He's actually a very intelligent guy, but with his feet firmly on the ground. Paul has been in the area a few times, and it's not just raw be seen and be gone electioneering.  He'll be back after the election, of that I'm sure.

 

Finally, I take issue with you that my nationalism is any different from Smudge's. That's a bit presumptive of you, and I'd like to hear your rationalisation for this.  In the last few days I've been visited by Bepe Grillo's Five Star Movement, and, though I agree with much of what they say about the EU, it's obvious to me that there are significant differences between their narrower nationalistic outlook and the much broader one of Ukip. So please no "Little Englander" labels - leave that one to the fools who want to give away the rest of our sovereignty.

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If I were able to I certainly would.  They've been invited here to state their views in detail, I do hope they will. I fear that they are the views of their left wing teachers though, and that they have been fed a continual diet of lies and media distortion.

So how come every opinion opposed to yours must be caused by indoctrination, misguidedness or sleeping brains? And are not most teachers liberal democrat supporters who have just been in a five year coalition in one of the most right wing governments this country has had since Wellington was Prime Minister? I hope they do state their views on here we could do with a more balanced discussion. 

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Smudge.......I don't think its the most right wing one I have seen never mind since Wellington!

If I've told my kids once I've told them a million times, "don't exaggerate!". Maggie's government was probably more right wing but they were more sly about what they did. What they did then was move the goalposts further right and the silly Labour party at the time followed to be thought moderate to be elected in the future, thus wrecking the dreams of millions of people in the country. The Scots decided to do something about it on their own, taking a lot of the natural labour movement support along with them along with them as well as tactical voting by the Scottish Tories. Maggie sold off the crown jewels but this last lot have been getting the house ready for sale and not to the EU but to their super rich friends. At this rate we'll all be tipping our caps to our lords and masters. The Normans invaded in 1066 and the b-------s are still in charge.  Bring back clause four! 

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So how come every opinion opposed to yours must be caused by indoctrination, misguidedness or sleeping brains?

Because UKIP are HONEST smudge, they don't indulge in electioneering.

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